From Project Management to Execution: Strategy Insights from Healthcare

Jonathan  0:03  

Welcome everybody to another episode of the strategy gap, great conversation in store today on all things not just strategy development, how you move it through to execution, and then turn that into operational efficiency as well. Joining us today is Daniel Kean. Daniel has an extensive background in both strategy and operations with experience across management, consulting, CPG, life sciences, and more. His focus is career at the intersection of strategy and operations developing go-to-market strategies within life sciences and seeing those plans through execution and even further in operational efficiency. In his current role, he's responsible for leading the strategy and operations of large patient support programs to ensure improvements in quality and performance across the entire patient journey. Daniel, welcome to the show.

Daniel  0:49  

Thanks for having me. Great to be here.

Jonathan  0:51  

So Daniel, we went a little bit into your background, just out of the gate from the introduction, but I'd love to give you the opportunity to talk about that career journey, the time you spent in strategy development, and now how you're more on the operational efficiency side.

Daniel  1:02  

Yeah, absolutely. So um, you know, my career is not the usual just corporate ladder, that that, you know, many folks may be used to. So I'm an engineer by education. I worked for the government on aircraft carriers for a year or two, after that, went back to grad school got into consulting, that's where I got my, my first taste of, you know, health care, you do a couple of healthcare projects, and one thing leads to another and all of a sudden your career is kind of focused there. But I did take a bit of time off as a sales Planning and Performance Manager for AB InBev. So the big Brewer, so I got to travel the world, understand the beverage industry, but ultimately came back to healthcare after that came back in the consulting world, did a stint as, as an airline pilot, I've been flying my whole life when my daughter was born, I needed a flexible schedule, did some flying and when COVID came back into healthcare, and it's been going a great three and a half years back leading patient support programs. And we've done a lot of the company, Matt, now to really enhance the patient journey and be able to pull through, you know, kind of broad plans around taking our programs from a kind of fragmented model to one that's unified in house and really optimized. So definitely a different background. But I think it gives you a lot of perspective around, you know, working with different types of folks and understanding patients and different profiles of folks across the country as well.

Jonathan  2:41  

Yeah, absolutely no, appreciate that additional background. And in today's conversation, we definitely want to spend a lot of time on the strategy execution piece, and eventually how to translate that, and a program management and efficiency. But before we dig into that piece, I do want to start first on the planning side. So one thing Joe and I often see and certainly I've had conversations with others about is that organizations spent often way too long on the planning piece, right, trying to get everything perfect. When you think about strategy, and that development from your background. How do you know when actually this this plans is good enough? Like let's move forward and begin to that begin the internal selling, you know, what does that look like?

Daniel  3:17  

Yeah, I mean, it's a, it's a great question, because I feel like I've seen folks try and go and have every single backup plan or contingency, you know, taking care of it, and you're never going to know everything, right. And I think, you know, what's what's helped me in my career is understanding, if you start seeing themes in market research, if you start, you know, seeing themes when you're out, you know, speaking with, with customers out in the field, those are probably right, you don't need to go and do another study with a bigger volume of, you know, a respond is the key is getting the kind of the right inputs from my, you know, key key opinion leaders, if you will, you know, that really helps you define your strategy. And then the other thing is that you may not be able to see initially, you're not going to and in many ways, right? So, I think get really good at what is going to be, you know, 90 or 95% of the you know, of your of your day to day or whatever your strategy is, and then the 5% you just have to have the operational kind of ability to go and respond to that without having it become a broader issue. Right. So it's not that you need to understand everything is that you need to then have a plan for the things that you aren't going to see as part of your your strategy development. I think that's, that's the way I've approached it. And that's kind of helped, you know, hit the go button, and still feel confident that anything that comes at you is going to be okay. Yeah,

Joe  4:58  

I think most people think of there being a ask themselves, they want to spend the extra time as a an exercise to make sure that they don't look poorly, six months into this rather, because you're looking at a strategic planning effort. And you've really break it down to what it is, and you've been in many of these, you're looking into the future. As an organization, you are surrounded by subject matter experts from every discipline within the organization, and you're making educated bets. I mean, at the end of the day, they're bets, you're making assumptions. And that's the fun way to do it. Business schools be great, you're making assumptions, but they're really bets. And the hope is that you're making smart bets, you're not being crazy. But the idea is that you're not going to be able to be 100% efficient with what you think is going to happen. And sometimes the fear of that coming back to bite them, makes people just spend sometimes I've seen eight months of planning for a one year plan. And that's just obviously can't be, but that paralysis is something that's a fear is very present in a lot of organizations. Yeah,

Daniel  5:52  

I mean, absolutely. And I think you're laying that out up front, is also equally important. So here's the things that we we don't know, or we may not know, and here's how we're going to go and deal with it. Right. And you know, that, that is actually considered to be at least, you know, a lot of the orientations I've worked in, like a very pragmatic and mature way to look at it, because folks who've who've been in the business for a long time, understand to your point, nothing's 100%. You know, and, you know, as I progressed in my career, you know, school kind of sets you up, but there's always a right answer. And I feel like it takes a long time to me, myself included, it took a long time to kind of break that where, look, no financial model is ever going to be perfect. No staffing model is ever going to be the you know, absolutely foolproof, there's going to be more demand or less demand, you're gonna go and have to flex. You know, and being able to go and feel comfortable with that is something that takes a little bit of time. But the sooner you can, the better it's going to be. With

Joe  6:50  

my business school. I thought accounting was the best class I could take. I mean, who says that? I'm not an accountant, I enjoyed it. Because there was a right answer, there is always the right answer. But in strategic planning, it's educated guesses. And, yes, you want to make sure the things you're putting into the plan, there are some financial analysis behind it saying we should go into this direction, because we did all the research. But the the point we're all making here, that research can change at a moment's notice with a new entry in the market, different macroeconomic conditions. And so you just do your best to make sure that you when we talk about our second topic, execution, that you're monitoring what you actually said you're going to do, just in case when those speed bumps happen, you can then of course, correct versus setting it and forgetting it.

Daniel  7:29  

Yeah, yeah, I mean, this happened just just this year with us, you're ready for a product launch. FDA came back and, you know, said, Hey, we need more information. This was five days before we were supposed to, you know, hit the go button in there. And so you know, and that's a big, you know, in in the pharma space, it's a big lift to kind of adjust that, right, because you have content that's ready to go out, you have systems that are ready to go. And now you got to kind of your change the order, because there's other there was other things are gonna happen after that, right. So, you know, we had to have, again, the agility to be able to flex there, and not have it become an issue and we manage the great and honestly, it turned out to be, you know, one of the big wins for the year was what you guys were able to go and take this not have become a problem. And then two months later, you know, we launched and it was no big deal. And I was seen as a big cost.

Jonathan  8:21  

Yeah, I think going back to the component of you, everybody wants to get it right. I think the mistake they do to get it right is like, well, let's just not leave anything out of the plan, right? If we put everything in, well, we're gonna we're gonna get something right. And the problem that ends up causing is there's no focus, right? There's no way to keep everybody understanding of what's the most important to get everybody aligned about it, and towards the same ultimate goal. So in your experience, how do you keep people from getting distracted on all the things that you could be doing? And instead, keep them focused on really what's most important moving forward? Yeah,

Daniel  8:54  

to another great question. I think I try and align everyone to a set of core principles. So you know, if you have a, you have a problem, right? Normally, there's a strategy or, or, you know, to go and address that. And you set yourself up with like, these are the things that we're not going to break. So, you know, we are, we're not going to go towards fancy technology, we're going to focus on training, or, you know, we're going to ensure that, you know, we're only focusing on on customers that are already comfortable with, let's say, a disease state, right, and not grow a market but build depth in the current one. Those types of things help weed out. All the while, this is a nice idea. But it doesn't, it's not going to move the needle and it's not part of our core principles. And then once you have those, it's very easy to say, look, let's go back to this. There's a fit now. Okay, next, if it does fit, great, let's investigate it more. Is it worth the effort to move forwards with you know, with X, Y or Z so I've found that that sort of grounding is really, really helpful upfront, to keep people focused.

Joe  10:07  

And also, I think we're talking about the edges on the to like the strategic plan, sometimes all the credit goes to what made the plan. But there's very little talk about what didn't make the plan. So sometimes when something's not in the plan, they go, did anybody even think about adding this, like, you know, some people, some stakeholders whose project didn't get in there. And it's like, making the time, especially when you're launching the plan and say, here's what we're focused on. But here's the list of things we could have done, here's 70, things, we've pulled it down to four. And that's not just because we just threw darts at the board. And we had a discussion about what strategically, we're not going to do as much as what we are going to do. And some people, sometimes people omit that conversation for some odd reason. And people love to know that at least they were in the conversation, their project, their idea, it makes them feel good. Even if it wasn't selected, they want to know that it just didn't go into the void. So to speak,

Daniel  10:51  

you mentioned that like we actually did this this year. As a part of some of our launches, we chose what not to do. And that was actually a big part of our launch readiness reviews. With our exec team was a full slide on what did we choose not to do. And that was again, seen as as a huge benefit, because like everyone's trying to do more with less, more is not always better, and the things that you chose to walk away from, as long as everyone agrees that they weren't, you know, critical to, you know, again, what our what our core principles were for what we're trying to achieve. I mean, that's again, that's, I think that came across as as a really big, big win for us. So that happened this year, and it was well received.

Jonathan  11:40  

Yeah, absolutely. Curious, because everyone always talks about, hey, that we should do this. But from someone who's recently done it, obviously don't know that going into the details, but what is the what does that entail for you just showing, Hey, these are this is a list of all the things we didn't do? Are you giving justifications for why you didn't do that? Are you letting people voice their differences? Like how does that work in practice?

Daniel  12:00  

So I think a lot of it is backed up with kind of the, your foundational research, whether that's market research, whether that's financial analysis, there has to be a reason why, right? And it has to be a clear reason why, you know, if you did do this, either it was going to be a net neutral, or possibly a negative or a, it just didn't win out against all the other things that you had. And so, you know, I, you can't just list like 35 different things. Again, it's like, what are your, we had four things we decided not to do, that would have taken a lot of time, right, there was probably 150 Other things that we also chose not to do that were, you know, individual line items, you know, from what we've decided not to make a pamphlet for this, that's not going on a on a presentation for, you know, for a laundry history. But, you know, we admitted entire services for a specific set of the market and one of our lunches that we normally have for the rest of our brands, based on the needs of this prescriber set this drug. And those are the types of things that that we highlighted. So again, it depends on your audience, right, you got to be able to flex as well, you know, you know, senior executive team, you're gonna focus on a couple of big things, if you're talking with your product team, you may talk about the things we chose not to do down to a bit of a more granular level. So a piece of that is also flexing with the folks that you're engaging with.

Joe  13:22  

It's the idea of picking the critical few, for the most most of the things we work on here are the things that if we do we know we're going to win, it's not going to get us 100% of where we need to go. But it's going to get us further along than we would have if we would focus on 50 things. So the idea when you're building a plan, and a lot of my clients struggle with how many metrics do I put in? How many goals or the right amount of goals? How many focus areas should we have? And I'm always my recommendation is always anytime you go over four focus areas, you start to get little fuzzy, like I think like Mount Rushmore, right, there's four phases on it, not five, not 10, there's four. And when you have these conversations about who's the best quarterback, or who's the best musician, that Mount Rushmore conversation is great, because it really forces you to pick for me, you might have 60, but getting it down to four is an exercise worth doing. And I apply that pretty much every aspect of the plan for KPIs for goals, whatever it is, it always has to be for. But when you go north of four, that's when the trouble begins.

Daniel  14:13  

I totally agree. I mean, this year, we kind of stuck with three core principles on a bunch of

Joe  14:19  

threes perfect, I guess. So the three is perfect. And

Daniel  14:22  

I think it also depends on, you know, levels to again, you can have, you know, strategic, you know, core principles, you can have core principles for your product team core principles for your marketing team, you know, they all then have to level up right to, you know, in the pyramid, so doesn't mean you have to stick to three and that's it. Everyone else, you know, there's nothing else you can talk about. It depends on you know, you can break those down into the individual functions, right? And then work off from there.

Jonathan  14:51  

Yeah, let's let's shift gears a little bit into the execution side, right? So we've identified with our key principles, however many we have, we've talked about what we're doing and not doing. As we shift in execution, I think each organization has a different approach for how they're going to execute more from an operational standpoint, right? The team dynamics, who's doing what your background, obviously is more full of what I'll call traditional program management or performance manager, or a PMO type setup. Certainly some listeners are familiar with that they may have pMOS in their organizations, but some don't. How do you think about a PMO is role in strategy and what makes a really good PMO.

Daniel  15:30  

So, you know, a couple of couple of things like PMO, as I think you're having, having someone who keeps the functions together, and kind of ties all the interdependencies together is a good PMO does that, you know, it's a big part of, of execution in any like, sort of matrix organization of which many companies are today. Yes, we had a great product manager this year for a bunch of our launches. And just, you know, everything from, you know, the way, you know, status trackers are built to actually have detail with dependencies across functions, pushing on the discussion, when needed to make sure that, you know, they were able to go and see, all right, like, these two pieces need to come together. Or they're all gonna either not work or fall flat, right, whether it was you know, marketing sales, or Austin, you know, our products and whatever it might have been, you know, she was able to kind of tie those together. And then, you know, just just be someone who was able to go and see the full picture and call out folks when there was blind spots. A good PMO does that it's not just creating a, you know, a project plan, you know, that's part of it. But they have to be a partner in, you know, it's almost like a Chief of Staff, if you will, you know, kind of putting all the pieces together, making sure everyone gets their work and making sure it all ends up being executed on time raising things to the right, you know, different functions when needed. That's, that's what really worked well for us this year. And I think that's what I would like to see in the PMO.

Joe  17:13  

And we had a call back to a previous episode, we had a gentleman by the name of Jordan Gad, who works out and out on the west coast for a company called Aluna. Health. And he's the Chief of Staff. And he explained how his role was very similar to what you just mentioned. And I think I mentioned before the podcast, if you look at the Project Management Institute, and all the great things you need to do to become get your PMP certification, they're very clear that a good project managers job is about 85%. Communication, effective communication, not just communication, but effective communication. Because if you really like for listeners, like if you look at I just recently had my house painted, I was delighted because it was a very clear project plan, right? They showed up when they said they're going to show up, they did what they were going to do. And anybody who's had a bad project on their house or a bad anything, it's usually due to lack of communication, didn't call me back, why didn't they call me back? Or they said, they're going to do this, and they did another thing. And that seems simple. But clearly, it's not as simple as we make it out to be because we there's plenty of evidence of bad project management. So bringing you back to a question, how much of that project manager's job do you feel percentage wise, would be ensuring the communication flow was consistent, effective? You know, 100%, being the whole job, 0% being none of it? What would you say it was this case? Yeah,

Daniel  18:24  

75%, that's great. Somewhere around there, just making sure that yeah, all the teams were, you know, if they needed to get together, she would push for it. If, you know, when we had exact decks, making sure that there wasn't, wasn't anything missing, and that we had kind of covered all the stuff that we had discussed, right, as a, as a leadership group, was was was pulled through in there. And then obviously, all the kind of project management and there's, there's so many, you know, and they're able to flex from, you know, kind of high level to very specific, I think that's also another important point to add, there is a really good PMO is able to help you, you know, look at the big picture. But also when you have a question about what is this function doing over here? You know, they're able to go and dig in and answer that for you.

Joe  19:11  

You pick up a good point, because the founder and CEO of Under Armour was historically said you can, there's a lot of good and bad with that with that story. But the one good thing I'll point to, would be the way they run meetings at Under Armour was that they found that most meetings I've been in part of a lot of times it's it goes right to the top of the hour, and everyone's scrambling to get to the next place. And very little time has been spent on who's going to do what next right? It's just, we'll figure it out on Slack or we'll send an email, but the way that they talk about it, they do it internally and I haven't been one of the meetings but I'll take them at their word is that there's an hour long meeting 45 minutes is to discuss whatever the topic is of the meeting, and then always 15 minutes left to save what's next what we're going to do so it's like they're pulling the emergency brake and 45 minutes in and they're saying okay, stop. We only made it this far. What's next and they clearly articulate The next steps everybody goes for, like that always stuck with me. I don't always prescribe to it. But I think it's not a bad idea to avoid some of the problems we're talking about. Yeah, I mean, I think,

Daniel  20:08  

you know, in any, I mean, to be good at turning strategy and execution, any meeting Ryan leave, and there's like, it's like, alright, by generally disappointed. Because I was like, what was I here for? Right? I mean, was it a readout? If it was a readout that I probably could have? Had it been a deck or an email? Yeah. And so, you know, I always like to recap, you know, my important, you know, team meetings, what comes next? What have we discussed? Again, this, one of the demos we had this year was fantastic at, you know, really detailed follow ups, next steps, holding people accountable, you know, sometimes to her own detriment, because, you know, did she get pushed in the right way? You know, it was it was, she was really, really excellent at ensuring that, you know, folks followed up and then we had, you know, each week, we're moving the needle forwards.

Jonathan  20:59  

Yeah, it is definitely an important conversation and something that a lot of organizations fail to do. The funny thing is, it's not like we're talking about rocket science, or calculus or something super difficult. I mean, these are the basic fundamentals of how to work effectively with others. And so when you think about, you know, we talked about communication, and we talked about proper meeting structure, as we move into then monitoring strategy and how it's performing, what are the other fundamentals that you think about? Because, right, you can do all these things, but none of it matters unless you've nailed those fundamentals.

Daniel  21:34  

I mean, I guess, it depends on kind of where you are in, in the journey, right, I think, you know, early on, let's say, you know, if you're moving from, you know, initial strategy into execution, a lot of it is ensuring that you have, you know, feedback, it's, you have your metrics, but you also got to get real time feedback from the market, your customers, etc, like, we kind of over index on on that a bit. And then as things mature, you can move into, alright, well, here's our dashboards with our KPIs that are updated weekly, and automatically from this data source or something like that. Because early on, you don't oftentimes have enough volume or data to have those be super accurate. So I think it kind of varies in terms of how you go and seizures, strategy was working. You know, and if you're executing correctly, you know, so you kind of look for those early indicators. And then you move towards the KPIs that you you laid out, which obviously, are generally a bit more data-focused. And in many aspects,

Joe  22:38  

this might be a simple question, but I promise, it's not. Who's updating these project trackers, you mentioned the project manager, obviously, keeping the trains running on time and creating the tracker. But Jonathan, I've had clients that certain level of individual refuse to put a status in something they have the game of telephone happening. So what have you seen, and then what is ideal is the person that's closest to the work, they should be updating the tracker, regardless of level, should there be some buffer haven't have you seen that?

Daniel  23:07  

I mean, you know, a lot of our trackers, as we get, you know, further into launches, and things like that are, are updated by our data and analytics team. So there's a there's a point person, again, like X number of those, that's like, when you're really doing just KPIs data polls, they're usually the point person, folks come to me for the qualitative oftentimes, because I'm hearing from our field team, our customers, etc. And then that all gets pulled together into a, kind of like an exec summary deck that usually, you know, either the head of the brand or whoever, you know, their, their business ops person or Chief of Staff pulls together. And so I think it's a ultimately what you're ending up reading out is not just KPIs, it's a bit of qualitative, a bit of, you know, hard data. And then that all comes together across functions into a story of, of how you're doing. So that's the way I've seen it workplace. That

Joe  24:04  

makes sense is the qualitative piece is something that we coach our clients on all the time, because if you put a graph up on a page, somebody might have some contextual understanding of what that graph means. And if it's, I don't know if it if it makes sense to them, but if it if it doesn't, they're gonna act like it does. And they're going to internalize it and maybe make up the wrong narrative based on what they're seeing. Right? So the idea of comparing any quantitative data with qualitative gives, hopefully, the idea the full picture of what's going on. It's the reason why you watch a football game and you know, what's happening in the game, but there's so many that explaining what the implications are, and what's going to happen. And that's what people enjoy that when they're watching the news, having a little bit of political commentary saying this happened. And here's what that means. People just crave that and it sounds like you're doing that now. And that's been extremely effective. From my experience.

Daniel  24:49  

It's very hard to tell a story with just a graph. You know, there is I actually posted on LinkedIn there's like a Jeff Bezos video. You know about not measuring the right thing. And so, you know, one of the things, this is a little bit different than the scenario you're mentioning, but, you know, it's very easy to misinterpret data. Without the context and sort of the, the backgrounds like the Jeff Bezos piece was related to like they were talking about call center, you know, hold times, and you know, their KPI was like under two minutes. So I get 98%. And he's like, Well, I'm getting lots of feedback from our customers who are angry and saying, they've been on hold for 20 minutes. So he like called in in the meeting and was on hold for 20 minutes. And he goes, we're not measuring the right thing, right. So, you know, if you don't take some of that, you know, that qualitative data, you may be missing something, right. And, I mean, obviously, step one is making sure you're measuring the right thing, but it normally does not tell the full story. And you got to make sure you kind of cover that as well.

Jonathan  25:56  

Then I love that example. I think it's a good way to think about what you're measuring how to make sure you're doing the right thing, and also how you're then using that to change. And I think when we think about strategy, obviously, it's not just hey, we're gonna do these things. It's try to make this sort of change within the organization. And then if we do that change successfully, okay. Now, this is an operational thing moving forward. I think a lot of times people think, Alright, strategy, we've done it, it's done, like, alright, let's reset, let's do the next thing. But with your experience, the operational side, like how do you then take that final component and translate it into an ongoing operational piece?

Daniel  26:29  

Yeah, I mean, so I've been on both sides of this. So you know, I was a consultant for many years where, you know, like, you can come up with great plans, you know, I've handed over, you know, many things I thought were real slick, and you take them to the clients, and you check back six months later, you go to they do this, and it's like, now didn't happen. And the answer is always organizationally, there wasn't buy in someone move roles, whatever it may be. And so there's, you know, really good strategy is only as good as the kind of support that you can get for it. From a broader organization, oftentimes, it's not like, you just need one function, right. So you know, when we were putting even just for us, with patient services, I had to, in order for us to really do well and execute what we needed to do, I had to have buy in from sales around our unified message, I had to buy in from marketing to make sure that they were pulling through, you know, across web, digital, etc, you know, I had to have buy in from our market access team as to like, what we were going to focus on, with respect to you know, payer coverage, and, you know, all of those different pieces, and everyone, you know, you have to sell that in and after everyone gets on board, then it's much easier to actually execute. And so without that kind of, I guess, selling, if you will, or, you know, defining your vision and getting people to believe in it, buying into it, strategies never gonna go anywhere. And that's also where the more complex you make it, the more convoluted you make it, the harder it is to go and have people understand it, number one, and two want to go and sign up for that, because then it seems like a risk, right? So when we talked about moving into the three, you know, keep keeping your, you know, for last right around core principles, KPIs, etc, you know, that also helps with being able to go and really pull something through an organization because folks know, okay, yeah, no, I get it, I can work with you on this. And then you're able to move it through. You know, and then once you have that, and you're moving into the execution side, you know, it's, again, you need, you need all those different functions support, to make sure that they're doing what you agreed upon, right. And so you have to have really, really good relationships with those folks to say, All right, you know, how are you doing, if something's not going? Well, they're, you know, they have to feel comfortable to tell you, all right, and that's how you can make adjustments if you don't really build that trust and partnership up front. And you're kind of working in a, in a box where no one's speaking to each other. Oftentimes, your strategy is gonna fall flat, because nothing, nothing works on itself.

Joe  29:13  

And think the concept you're talking about directly is making your plan our plan. So selling internally makes people think, like, Yeah, I'm down. I'm with this, and it's now I'm invested in the success and therefore it's our plan, and then much better scenario than just saying, we are going to do this, do you like it or not? So I think

Daniel  29:31  

most of the time, I mean, most of the time, you're also these people don't report to you. Right? So they can go that's great. But that's not what my boss wants, or that's not what my team is doing this year. And, you know, you can you can go try that but good luck. That's not going to end well. And it's, it's a, it's an underappreciated aspect of, you know, one of the things in my career I've been kind of known for is the, you know, get stuff done, so you know, GSD and And that's that's been, you know, what, what's helped me, you know, kind of be able to go and, you know, get credibility is like, I know how to go and bring people together. Like that's the hardest part, it's the last, the last little bit that people forget. And that's how you really go and get into really good execution,

Joe  30:18  

that last mile delivery, as Jeff wants to talk about. Right? Exactly. But and also using your power of influence versus your authority. I think these are all key topics that our listeners can really hopefully apply. We pride ourselves on pragmatic advice here on the podcast. So thank you for giving folks things they can actually use to bridge that gap, hence the name of the podcast. But we do have one final question that we have for you, before we close things out that we asked every guest. And this should be an interesting answer. Given your your very diverse career so far, if you can speak to yourself as if you were just beginning your career in strategy, what advice would you give yourself, you could pick a job but general career.

Daniel  30:59  

I mean, like, if I was, you know, coming out of school, you know, early on, let's say my first couple of jobs, it would be that like, good things take time. I feel like oftentimes there is. The feeling today is, you know, instant gratification, right? Everyone talks about this, it's like, you know, social media, everyone wants to have, you know, their feed light up, and, you know, right now for, you know, for whatever I want, and I and that's just not how good things come together. So you have to really put in the effort put in the time, oftentimes really good strategy execution, you know, go on arcs of two, three years, right, in order to, you know, build the trust of folks to build those relationships to, you know, have folks listen to you, and have you be, you know, considered, you know, a credible source like that. Those things take time. And then, and then the results start to follow after that. And then early on in my career, I was like, Well, you know, why is this not moving faster? Or like, what, you know, why is, you know, why are people not not taking me seriously? It's because you just didn't have enough time put in? Yeah. And I think, you know, that's what I would say is just be patient can, you know, be consistent with your work, be consistent with your guidance, you know, get a track record, and then things will accelerate from there start to go on, like, on a J curve. So I think that's, that's what I would tell myself. I was starting out.

Jonathan  32:37  

Yeah. Love it. Absolutely. I think it's a great way to close up the conversation. So Daniel, we appreciate your time today. Had a lot of fun, and hopefully, our listeners enjoyed the insights as well and look forward to future conversations.

Daniel  32:48  

Yeah. Thank you guys so much for having me. It's great. Thank you.