Ep 013 | Balancing Data and Instinct: Finding the Right Fit in Organizational Roles

🎙 THE STRATEGY GAP PODCAST

Balancing Data and Instinct: Finding the Right Fit in Organizational Roles

JANUARY 10, 2024

About this episode

Do you lean towards Peter Brand (Jonah Hill) or Billy Beane (Brad Pitt) in your data approach?

Adam Sidoti, VP of Revenue Operations at Redwood Logistics, emphasizes that while data should that the lead, a deeper conversation and empirical evidence are essential for a comprehensive understanding. Leveraging his legal background, he highlights the importance of grasping personality profiles and organizational philosophies in team success. From using data for narratives to handling transitions, this episode provides insights into talent management and organizational effectiveness.

Join us for a discussion on:

  • The importance of data-driven decision-making
  • Human resources and organizational decisions
  • Hiring and organizational roles
  • Individual personality and role fit

Guest Intros

Strategy Gap Podcast Guest | Adam Sidoti, Strategy Gap Podcast Guest | Will Ritchings, VP of Revenue Operations at Redwood Logistics

Adam Sidoti

VP of Revenue Operations at Redwood Logistics


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Transcript đź“ť

Jonathan Morgan  [00:00:03]: 

Hello, everybody, welcome back to another episode of The Strategy Gap, another fun conversation in store today, and today we are joined by Adam Sidoti. Adam is the Vice President of Revenue Operations at Redwood Logistics. He has a unique perspective due to his unique career path restarted originally as a lawyer, and has since led roles across functions and operations, sales, and client success of both large and small organizations. Throughout his career, he's developed a passion for data and change management. We'll be discussing various aspects about that in today's conversation. But Adam, welcome to the show.

Adam Sidoti  [00:00:37]: 

Thanks very much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Jonathan Morgan  [00:00:41]: 

Great. Well, at times in our previous episodes, we've talked about the role that data plays in strategy, execution, and how to create a data strategy and many things related to that. But for the conversation with you, Adam, we really wanted to focus on your experience and change management and the role that data plays and change management. And one key aspect of that is, is how we think about data. So, what I want to start off with is, in your opinion, how do you let data tell the story versus just making decisions off of your feelings?

Adam Sidoti  [00:01:12]: 

Yeah, I think oftentimes, when we're dealing with commercial organizations, there's a natural, like yin and yang, or give and take between what you feel in your gut, and what the data really shows. And sometimes it's great, sometimes it's fantastic, where what you feel in your gut actually matches exactly what the data shows. But I think we owe it to ourselves. And we owe it to our people. And, you know, frankly, the organizations that we work for, to allow the data to shape the story and the narrative. And there will be many times where I'll say, Oh, that's interesting, I really thought that this person was more of this type of person, then this type of person. And yet, they're still finding success, what's going on there. And I think one of the things that we have to allow ourselves to do is to let that data, show us the insights, but then pick apart at that a little bit, talk to the individual and understand a little bit more about what are they actually seeing and feeling. And a great example of this is, oftentimes in our organization, we rely on tools like predictive index, other companies will use disc profiles and things like that. But a lot of times, when you look at predictive index, it'll actually tell you, hey, this person has a profile that doesn't quite match the role in which you're trying to hire, hire them for I use myself as an example all the time. If you dropped me into a conference, you know, and said, Hey, go around and introduce yourself to a bunch of people go to booths, and get some information or try to make a sale or club lead, I would do it because that's part of my role. But at the end of the day, I'd be exhausted. And so, a lot of times, what we do is we say, Well, why is that and you look at my profile, my profile would say that, hey, you know, I'm much more introverted than I am extroverted. However, what we can also find out by using data is that when you're, you know, you may be introverted. But when you are an expert in something like this, right, this is a perfect example, this is an area where I feel comfortable and have expertise, I don't feel nervous or tired or exhausted or anything like that. So, this is an example of where the data, if you just looked at my profile would say, hey, maybe Adam wouldn't be the greatest person for this kind of a medium. But in reality, you have to dig a little bit further and understand how that works. You know, within the individual themselves, I think that a lot of times, we tend to look at data as the end all be all. And I think what we have to do a much better job of is saying, Okay, let's look at what the data shows. And then let's bounce that up against what we see in reality. And that way, we can understand a little bit more about the perspective that it brings.

Joe Krause  [00:03:53]: 

So, what I'm hearing is that basically, the data allows you to potentially focus the conversation, or at least know where to start. And then based on empirical evidence or conversations, maybe, then get the full picture, the equivalent would be, you could go tour a historic site on your own and really take it all in, there is a big difference. So, if you're walking around with an expert that actually is like the national parks, person that's walking around saying, actually, that's where that person stand. And then there was it was a rainy day. And these are the types of things that start to really then give shape to what actually happened. So, your point around introversion and extraversion is great, because it's probably the most misunderstood thing, oh, this persons boisterous. They love talking. They must be an extrovert. But they don't really know on the other side that they're exhausted afterwards. So, I think many of our listeners can relate. And so would you. Would you agree with the statement I made earlier around the fact that data at least allows you to know where to start the conversation, you have to be at least flexible enough to then let the conversation maybe lead you to a different outcome and not have outcome bias?

Adam Sidoti  [00:04:52]: 

Yeah, I think that's 100% of the way to look at it. If you think about it, I was actually listening to a report of About the Houston Astros, right, they just they just fired or they fired their manager, the manager was hired dusty Baker, and they were interviewing a, like one of the journalists down in Houston. And they're talking about their new guy that they hired, I forget his name. Now, it's not that important. But what was interesting was the guy who's being interviewed said something along the lines of this hire is about continuity. And it's also about a commitment to analytics. And one of the criticisms of dusty Baker over his career has been that sometimes he ignored analytics in favor of his gut. But just for as many times as you hear criticisms of that, I think it's often that you'll hear a criticism of somebody who manages too much by the numbers. So sometimes you just have to go with your instinct, like, you can just say, yeah, the numbers show this, but I'm in the trenches, I know something different, I feel something different. And I'm going to sort of bucked that trend of relying too heavily on analytics, and I'm a data guy. So, I kind of like when I hear that I sort of say, like, well, you know, if the data shows you 75%, something's going to happen, you should do it all the time. But then somebody else would point out what that 25% might, you know, be impactful. So, I think you're right, that the data should lead you to an area where you should be looking. But you can't let it decide everything. I just feel like that's a mistake that that we would make, you know, perhaps to the company's detriment.

Joe Krause  [00:06:36]: 

Are you more Jonah Hill or more of Brad Pitt when it comes to data?

Adam Sidoti  [00:06:40]: 

The Great question. So, yeah, so I would say that, with? That's a great question. Because, you know, honestly, I love looking at the numbers. The numbers are, you know, fascinating to me, especially when, like you talk about sports or anything like that. But we see it in sales all the time. You know, I was actually looking at some numbers today around a rep who's really successful, but not in the area where she's supposed to be successful. And the question that is, like, are we putting her in the right position? Is she you know, is this uh, can do it, but just in the wrong spot, we're not setting her up for success? Or is this just a stubbornness on behalf of the rep, I guess I would probably put myself more in the Brad Pitt camp, because I think you rely on the numbers to help guide you. But you also have to take into consideration all the other pieces. You know, I think there's, there's probably room for a little bit of massaging on that, right. Like, I've my son is a hockey player. And I talked with one of the other dads on the team about what positions people should be in. And, you know, my instinct is to look at, well, in this game, they were together, and they scored three goals. So, this like, but at the end of the day, like you talk to the kids, and they'd be like, No, I was just feeling good that day, or, yeah, you know, this guy just made a mistake, the puck ended up with my stick in the back of the net, it went. So, there's, there's a time to look at the numbers. And I think one of the challenges that we have in these types of roles, is it depends how big your sample sizes, you know, if you have a relatively small sample size, and you're relying on numbers, you can run yourself into trouble. And I think one of the challenges we have in a lot of our organizations is that as much as we rely on data, particularly small to midsize companies, you don't have the depth and the experience of data to be able to make that observation. So maybe I'm relying only on six months’ worth of really clean data, or eight months, whereas another organization might have five years. That's a big difference.

Jonathan Morgan  [00:08:48]: 

And for those that are maybe listening to saying what in the world to Brad Pitt and Jonah Hill have to do with data from the movie Moneyball. So, I will clarify that movie are in book Moneyball, where the Oakland Athletics for the first time really introduced the importance of data in decision making in sports. So, give it a read or watch if you haven't already, as it does apply to this conversation. But continue on the chat. I think, right? In this conversation, we're kind of preaching to both sides of the choir, right? We're saying things that oh if you're a data driven person use data. But we're also opening the door for people that use God like, oh, just use your gut. And I think both people are probably hearing what they want to hear. It's like, Yeah, I know my guts, right, or yeah, I know, my data is right. How do we think about the balance between those two, in using a good bounce? Like, where is that breaking point? Because we don't want to only use the gun, and we don't want to only use the data, we want to have a strong balance, not just internally, but across our team as well.

Adam Sidoti  [00:09:43]: 

Yeah, I mean, I think one thing to maybe clarify also the outside is, when we talk about a data point, a data point can be a statistic, it could be a percentage, it could be something that's truly empirical, or it could be an observation. These are all day Other points now how you measure those and how you weigh those. I think that is somewhat subjective. So, depending on the type of person, whether they're the Jonah Hill or the Brad Pitt, you might weigh one more heavily than the other. As far as my own personal feeling is I probably start off with about a 5050 split. I go with what my gut or what I think it's going to tell me. And then I also am like, hey, what's the data send, sending signals around, as I start to gain more data, evidence, whatever that be. That may be, it's going to shift it one way or the other to the point where I'm able to make a conclusion. Now, my own personality, I probably start off sometimes with a conclusion. And then I always have to make sure I'm not just drilling toward that, you know, for example, if somebody says to me, Hey, determine whether this rep should be on a performance plan or whatever. Naturally, I know what their numbers have been. I've had interactions with them. So, I have to be careful about not taking that bias into the analysis, which is purely a numerical analysis. But I think it's all data point. I mean, honestly, I started with a 5050. And I, and I sort of let it massage where I think it should, or where it ends up going, based on the quality of the data. Do they have 10, at bats, do they have 100? At bats, that's gonna, that's going to drive your numbers.

Joe Krause  [00:11:21]: 

You’re bringing up a topic that I think is very relevant to folks that are managing strategic plans and bridging that gap between what they say they're going to do and what they actually do. And that's the PDB, the people that on the team that we have that are able to do it. And you mentioned the rep, and it's one of those interesting jobs, everybody says, oh, you should get into sales. I mean, it's extremely rewarding, rewarding, and there's a big financial benefit. But there's no other job that you're on, there's a scoreboard over your head at all times, and a lot of data that they can use to see if you're effective or not. And I think I mean, I could be wrong, I think I heard a little bit of a sprinkling of the EOS model, the Entrepreneurial Operating System, traction, that famous book, and they say looking at employees, there's like three dimensions that are important, in addition to your company's values, it's that they get it that they want it, and that they have the capacity to do it. Right. If they, if they're missing one of those or one of those three things, it's going to be very difficult for that person to succeed in their role. And you mentioned using data to potentially understand if they have the capacity, and maybe if they get it, but is that how have you used data beyond? You know, maybe the understanding how they're hitting quota and things like that? How have you used data to make a decision on this person needs to be on this seat in the bus or off the bus? So, we need new people to get on the bus? How have you incorporated that to make sure you have the right people on the team?

Adam Sidoti  [00:12:38]: 

So, you're right that the first thing, that's the most interesting thing about sales to me is you can't hide from your numbers. Right? You're either hitting your quota or you're not, you're either selling or you're not. There's it's extremely black and white. And that's scary to a lot of people. The people who are willing to embrace that are some of the best sellers that we have, right? They're just they don't care. And I always kind of think back to a conversation I had with, you know, one of my managers, we were talking about compensation plans. And he asked me, he goes, What's the best compensation plan in the world for a sales rep. And I don't know. He said 100% Commission, because that salesperson believes entirely on themselves, everything that they hunt, or everything, yeah, everything that they hunt, they eat. And they typically have really large percentages. If you're a good salesperson, and you're confident, you take that every day of the week. When we have a tough, a tough time, I think figuring out, you have your numbers, right? And you talked about it, it's like Skill versus Will. You have the numbers, and you can see the results. That's clear. But there's a lot of people who sometimes don't achieve results right away, because their industry is such that it requires a long time to scale up. And we have to be mindful of that, and not make quick trigger decisions that people who would otherwise be really successful. In fact, a lot of times even in my own organization, we remind ourselves, hey, if we made this decision a year ago, based on that person's numbers, they will potentially be gone. But look where they are right now with what we would have missed out on. So, we have to have a little bit of a balance. Now one of the things that I think from a data perspective that you can do to help understand or help your organization to understand where they should make decisions versus not, is relying on things like predictive index DISC profile, those personality profiles, because you can start to match that up. You know, there's this one individual who we hired in the past year, who, from the moment I looked at his predictive index, I was like, This guy is going to be not just great at his current role, but he's somebody who we should be thinking about for future leadership roles. The profile fits my conversations with him felt like everything was sort of checking the boxes, but for one thing, he had zero does I'd like to be in that management leadership type of position. So, I think a lot of times we have to let the data push us to an area where we're asking those tough and challenging questions. So for example, in that, in the example I gave earlier about my own profile, if I were in a sales role with a quarter, I think somebody would ask me, Hey, you know, one of the things that sales reps usually need to do is get out and talk to lots of strangers, right and prospect, face on your profile, it looks like that might be a little bit of a challenging challenge for you. Now, if somebody said that to me directly, I might take it like as a slight and get upset. So, a question I often ask every rep. Tell me how you build your pipeline. Tell me some of the tools, some of the strategies you use. And by asking those types of questions, you start to bring out the data points, you'll learn, are they somebody who's going to have to have leads pushed to them? Or are they somebody who's really going to feel comfortable going out and getting them? Do they have an extensive network and all of those, all of those things, become data points to help you understand whether or not someone can be successful in the role which you're hiring. A lot of times, we say, Oh, well, this person claims that they had 125% of quota. Well, that's great. You know, it's, to me, the question always comes down to what is your organizational philosophy on demand generation, if your organizational philosophy is entirely like, hey, we have a great marketing machine we bring leads in, you just have to go ahead and close them. Somebody like myself, who doesn't have to wouldn't have to hunt, great, I could do that all day long, be real happy. But if your organizational philosophy is a little bit more entrepreneurial, in the sense that you have to go out and hunt more of your own leads and do that I'd starve. So, you really have to be careful to understand what the profiles are, you know, I don't have to worry about that as much as people who have that really high extraversion factor, who are comfortable in like an unstable type environment, you don't really have to worry about that as much. And that, to me is, you know, more of a comforting data point. I will also tell you a cautionary tale is that I do have somebody on the team, who is that high extraversion who is very comfortable and unstable world and still not doing well. So, it's not an end all be all. Yeah,

Joe Krause  [00:17:17]: 

I think, sorry, recently, like, every time like every mom's like, you should go into sales. You really like talking to people? And like, that's not the job. That's a part of the job.

Adam Sidoti  [00:17:26]: 

Yeah, yeah. No, my son should…

Joe Krause  [00:17:27]: 

You should be a lawyer, you should be as a salesperson, you're like, No, that's not how it works, you know, but it's, it's a mom thing to say.

Adam Sidoti  [00:17:32]: 

Yeah. Well, it's funny, because, you know, my son has the propensity to talk. I mean, we drove to South Bend a couple weeks ago. And I think for the entire two hours, he didn't, he didn't shut up once. And he and I are very different. He's more of his mom. And that extraversion factor? I don't think he would love being in sales because he likes things to be stable. So, he's, he's probably the guy who's going to be a lawyer, more so than the sales guy.

Jonathan Morgan  [00:17:59]: 

Yeah. Well, yeah. And all of this boils back to kind of whether it's you're focusing on your profile or the numbers, it's all how do we make decisions to change either an individual or an organization, I think we've leaned in a lot on the individual side, and how you think about different aspects of that. But shifting gears, toilet swipe slightly to the organizational side? How do you then also think about leveraging data in those decisions? And what we'll get into kind of actually making that change? But what is the role that you have to think about an organizational standpoint versus just individual side? Because there are then many, many individuals that will be impacted by that change in the future?

Adam Sidoti  [00:18:38]: 

Yeah, I think organizationally, it's hard because everybody wants to keep in mind the individual component, right? The personal relationships, you have those, it's hard to set those aside. When you're talking about organizationally, we organizations in general, you almost have to set aside the people. And that's really tough to do. And you really need somebody in there with you, who's going to remind you to do that as usually a group of people and you have to hold each other accountable. But you have to cast aside the individuals and make the decision based on what the organization needs based on function. I go back to a few years ago, we were doing a reorganization and we had salespeople and we had client success. And our initial instinct was like, Okay, we still have these roles. They all have to be there. But it was interesting. As we got together as a group, we realized what we really have, like people who are like relationship partners, and then people who are more just providing a service. And instead of like, keeping that everyone in the boxes that they had originally, we said let's put the boxes up there and stop worrying about who goes into what box. And that to me is the most important way of doing these in a way that's most effective and beneficial to the organization. You think about the functions that are necessary. And then you think about the roles as it relates to the cluster or, and then finally, once you've aligned on that, then you can start layering in the people and you take into consideration the personalities, but even the roles themselves, they have a certain thing like, what do you need a service person to be able to do? What do you need to sell a seller to be able to do? A service person needs to get satisfaction and motivation out of just making people happy, a salesperson is gonna have to not just make someone happy, but they're gonna have to move them off the status quo. It's a very different personality set. So, I think it's really important that you apply that into like these boxes. And then at some point, you get down to like the individuals and making some decisions as to you know, where someone fits most effectively. And that's where the real change management occurs. I mean, that's, that's the challenge. Because sometimes you have to go to people and say, Look, you know, you've been doing this for a while, but like, we think you can be really successful here. And we're really excited about that. And here's why. And, you know, I had a manager, that's how I got into operations, I was doing clients success, managing a team in the Midwest, and very happily doing it. But I had a manager who really took an interest in my career and career development in general. And I remember clear as day I was in Dallas, I was in a hotel room having a conversation with her about, you know, my career and where things can go. And she said to me, you know, I know you love doing this, but I think your future is really in this like, revenue operation space, which by them was really new. And at first, I was so like, annoyed by that, right? I'm like, wait a second, are you telling me I'm not doing a good job. But as we talked about the role, as we talked about the way things are transitioning and moving forward, I realized, like, that's actually a better fit for my personality style than what I was doing. So even though I was happy and felt successful, and whatever, my overall career trajectory was best fit in this different type of function. And I think that's an example of like, having a really strong conversation with somebody, I always give her a lot of credit, for having the foresight, that conversation and, frankly, doing it in a way that didn't make me feel like I was being told I was failing in anything.

Joe Krause  [00:22:09]: 

We do that we're a smaller company. And we have a lot of people that started, let's say, in customer success, and now we're on the product team, or they started in sales, and they're doing something else in the organization for that very reason. And then also, the concept of really pairing people together. Because sometimes, like, at our organization, we don't have sales engineers, per se, the account executives do a fantastic job. But when they get to the end, the end meeting, and there's 20 decision makers, either virtually or in person, it really does help to have a subject matter expert, there's somebody that's on the other side of the fence, the client side and the two together make each other stronger, there definitely. There's that saying that you can't do a great job and you can't close the deal. Let's just partner you with the right skill set to ensure that we have the best possible outcome. And that sometimes gets people a little bit to your point on edge to say, Well, what do you mean, you don't think I could do it on my own? And it's like, no, it's just always a little bit easier if you have two people in the arena with you. And the book that I think I've referenced before on this podcast, and I always scream from the rooftops because I prescribed to it. And so, a little bit outcome bias there. But the book range by David, David Epstein, it's all about like how being a generalist is a generally a not a bad idea when it comes to being really successful, especially in smaller organizations. Because you can't necessarily always just be tunnel vision, I'm in sales, and therefore I can't do anything else, especially if maybe your skill set can be applied some other places. So, have you had to have conversations that sounded like that? Because it sounds like you had a manager that had that conversation with you. And it really was impactful. How then leverage that to either mimic that get better at it? And what kind of results have you seen? Are people generally open to spreading their wings? Or does it make them retreat and say, I'd rather not.

Adam Sidoti  [00:23:48]: 

So, I think I've had like the absolute honor over my career of working with lots of different types of people, interesting backgrounds, diverse backgrounds, diverse thought processes. And so, it's really given me something myself an opportunity, even within these roles that are sort of like these quasi leader, quasi leadership, a quasi like executive type of roles where you're like, you're dealing with people in different types of disciplines. And so, I think I've had those conversations on a regular basis. I mean, I honestly, whether I'm managing them or just having a casual conversation. A lot of times what I do is try to think about what it is that someone is really good at, and what it is that they want to do. And a lot of times they'll say, this happens all the time, Hey, I've been I've been in sales for you know, X number of years, I've had some success. I should be a manager. I ask them why. And why do you want to be a manager? There's a lot of things that you give up. When you go to management. There's, you know, an individual who's pulling in a significant commission might be giving that up in favor of a rep who's going to be earning all of those dollars and so you have to get satisfaction out of helping others in a way that, you're not going to get the pat on the back all the time that when report that comes out, that's not going to have your name on it. So, all of those things that you might love about sales goes away. And so, you have to ask somebody, what is it you really want to achieve? Where do you want to be when you grow up kind of a conversation? I, I had a manager who said to me once that he has sort of like a Mount Rushmore of people who used to work with who have gone on to bigger and greater things. And he views that as his greatest success, more so than anything he's ever accomplished individually. That is an amazing thing that I try to think about all the time, whenever I have someone new on my team, or even someone who I'm working with, you know, laterally. I think about that all the time, you have to have those conversations, what is it that you really are interested in? So, you know, like, when somebody says to me, Hey, I really want to be a COO. Well, why, like, what is it that you really like about being a CEO? What do you think you're going to do in that role? And then start asking them about their personality type does that, you know, do you see that as being a fit? Or would you get frustrated by this? And I think that happens. Honestly, it happens for me on like, a weekly basis where I'm having those types of conversations. I had two of them yesterday. And one of them, you know, it was like, I was actually coaching a PR people leader to ask the ref. Why is it you want to be a manager? You know, while they just feel like it's their natural career progression?

Joe Krause  [00:26:33]: 

100%. Always. That's always the answer is, yeah.

Jonathan Morgan  [00:26:36]: 

Yeah, and these are all the always the fun conversations to have with people, right? Because you're helping them map that career, map their future, and get to get them to where they'd like to be or kind, of course, correct where you think they should be in the future. On the opposite side of that, there's the decisions that have to be made as an organization where either somebody's getting moved out of the organization or into a different role. And thinking about the things that we've talked about today, or even something entirely different. How do you approach those conversations in because many organizations, unfortunately, have gone and will continue to go through this based on the macroeconomic environment?

Adam Sidoti  [00:27:09]: 

Sure. So I think, if the decision is made to the point where you're going to be exiting somebody from the organization, to me, it's like a band aid, you know, you take time to make the higher, you go quick with the fire. And I know, it's a callous thing to say. But what I always try to think about is, what value do I get and beating around the bush, like, people use the compliment sandwich, right like that, that whole, like, you know, it's always something good, then something bad, you people know that they feel it coming. So, one of the best ways that I've seen it done is, you know, you just say, frankly, we made a decision today to part ways, today is going to be your last day, here are the things that we're going to be doing, you know, whether there's a severance or, you know, instructions around the logistics of how you're handing back to equipment. But I've, I've been sort of fortunate that in almost every case where I've had somebody go through like a performance plan that I've directly managed, that ended up not working out, usually we arrive at the same decision together. And oftentimes, they end up in better positions almost all the time, like you look back a year later, and you're like, oh, this person is doing this great. That's what they should have been doing all along when somebody doesn't succeed in an organization. And it's not, I'm not talking about a layoff situation where, you know, the economy just tanks or whatever. But when someone doesn't succeed, and for performance purposes, as have needs to be like, Oh, that's a failing on the manager almost all the time. Now, there's certain situations where you put up as much as you can, and it's just not working. And I get that. But I really do take personal responsibility, when somebody needs to be let go for performance because I feel like I let them down because they're not able to perform where they want to be. It goes down to their will versus skill thing. Of course, if they're not putting any effort in you get it. But that usually ties to personality type. You know, I think back to the guy I used to work with who you know, he had all the all the intelligence in the world. It just wasn’t what he wanted to be doing. So, he wasn't going to put the effort in. And I remember you know, six months later, he sent me a note he got his master's degree, he was working in a new role, and he was he was happy. All works out on the layoff situation is tougher because it's nothing that they did, right? It's, there's nothing wrong with their work. And what I always tell people is really good. employees who work hard, will always end up on their feet. And I'm always willing to help and provide any kind of support that I can. But again, I don't belabor the point. I think that you have to be clear, transparent with not just the people who are being let go But the people who are left behind, because those people are the one who are dealing with a really big trauma, as well.

Joe Krause  [00:30:06]: 

And the way you bring people in, and the way you exit them out of the organization says a lot about you as a company. I mean, we all probably have seen the movie up in the air with George Clooney, as an example of probably the most callous type of thing. It was like a remote layoffs. And here's your book, and we're gonna give you that and I worked for a large corporation before coming to achieve it. And that was very, very cold it was basically all communication was cut off, all your computers were shut off, and you were just treated a one day you're an employee the next day, you had no access to your support network, which was the people that you work with. So at least working for a small organization. And having experienced some of this in the past, there is a virtue and taking the extra time to ensure that people that are leaving either voluntarily or through layoffs and voluntarily, that they land on their feet. And that just if you believe in karma, if you believe in good Glassdoor reviews, I mean, there's a million reasons for doing it. But it's sometime is overlooked because people try to get away from the awkward conversation. And ultimately, if you're transparent and honest, it doesn't have to be awkward, the only person making it awkward is potentially the manager. And that long as you overcome that hurdle and that self-imposed hurdle, typically good things can happen. So that that insight is very valuable. Yeah,

Adam Sidoti  [00:31:13]: 

I think most people are conflict averse, right? Most people want to get along. Maybe it's my background as a lawyer that it doesn't bother me like the conflict thing like I can, I can have an argument with somebody and like, five minutes later, go for a drink with them, because it just doesn't faze me the same way. And I think a lot of people who are in HR, who are really good at their jobs as sort of managing people through those processes, have to have that same mentality. Because otherwise, I don't know how they get through there. Like, I mean, you saw it in that movie, right? Like, you'd be driven to, you know, all kinds of things.

Joe Krause  [00:31:48]: 

Living in Omaha, you live in Omaha, no offense to our listeners in Omaha, anyway.

Jonathan Morgan  [00:31:54]: 

Well, Adam, we appreciate your time today, before we close out one final question that we ask all of our guests. So, thinking about your career and everything you've learned, and where you were at the beginning of your career, if you had to go back and give yourself one piece of advice, what would that be?

Adam Sidoti  [00:32:09]: 

I think it's the same advice that I would probably give myself right now, which is to breathe. To understand that. You know, you have to be confident in who you are, and who you are as an individual. If you do good work, if you work hard, good things will happen. And I think that's a really important thing to remember. I mean, you can only control what you can control. There's so many external factors you mentioned, mentioned the economy, the environment, people they hire people you're working with, you can only control the effort that you give, and the work that you're willing to put in. And I think sometimes even today, you know, I'll start thinking about what's going on over here. What does this mean? And what are they meeting about? And what's that, like? You know, you can drive yourself crazy with that. And I think my advice is to same advice I give my kids you can only control what you can control and that's your own effort.

Jonathan Morgan  [00:33:08]: 

Well, Adam, I will give you kudos for the effort you put in today. And I'm sure our listeners would as well. So, thank you for that and for joining the conversation today. So, it was a joy to have you on.

Adam Sidoti  [00:33:16]: 

Thank you very much, appreciate the time.

Joe Krause  [00:33:20]:

Thank you.

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